Badlands Opinions?

[ikigai.]

okay hi ! ! ! i'm a former member of the badlands, and ngl i haven't stalked that board in a long time so these opinions might be dated, but i'll just be short and to the point.

i'm going to say the badlands... okay i've complained about this a couple times even when i was in the badlands, and i don't want to come off as,, Moody, or like i'm bitching or anything ASDFASDF
but the board says "the badlands." it's described, verbatim, as "A rough-and-tumble mafia group, living in an old coastal town." You go to the board and it says "Welcome to the Badlands, a dangerous group nestled in an abandoned coastal city. This is gangster country, so if you're looking for trouble, I'd suggest that you turn around now."

so i think it was quite the shock to me and maybe to others, to join the badlands thinking it's this tough and harsh mafia group that's dangerous and full of gangsters-- and then to basically be told after a bit "lol nah fam we're neutral and we have nothing to do with the mafia nowadays" ASDFASDF maybe that's just me though okay aSDF
imo i don't even think the badlands needs to be evil or dangerous - i mean bp is kinda rising up as this sorta chaotic kind of group - but if anything my main complaint would be that bl really needs to update a lot of their information because,, it's kind of off-putting to join a group thinking it's bad when really it's neutral. and i think that means updating the board, the guide, etc, etc a bit. which- it's work, but it might pay off having one exact, concrete idea of what exactly the group is rather than making characters kind of have to figure that out themselves -- and having the information on the board be accurate so people that join actually know what the group is about, if that makes sense.

that's just the only thing i would add to the other things people have already said before. and, of course, that's just my opinion and i'm not meaning to sound harsh in any way. just honest, so you can hopefully get results : ' )

edit: could there be an anonymous survey sometime soon? there are things i want to say but ngl i'd feel more comfortable saying it all anonymously : ' )

[eliza]

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yeet skeeting in here as one of the few members, someone who's been here for years, someone who's been through all but one leadership, and someone who's watched the groups evolution. i'm not alone in having spectated in the groups evolution throughout the years, but i think almost everyone can agree (through no fault of anyone) that something has gone wrong somewhere along the line.

personally? the last time i really adored the badlands, and felt nothing but excitement regarding it as a whole, was during charlie's reign, and i think there's a pretty good reason when you compare it to the leaders that have come afterwards. there was a theme (mafia) but it wasn't forced upon you. there was badness, but it wasn't especially overt.

they were, like hoot pointed out, a shadowclan/slytherin/baddie variation. ask people to pick a hogwarts house, there will be more than a few who pick slytherin; ask someone to pick a clan, there's more than a few who favor shadowclan. there's a reason behind this. there's an appeal in something dark and wicked, and these groups embody it. they're not nice, they're not sunshine and rainbows. they're self serving (slytherin literally embodies ambition), they embrace dark colors and essences, and they don't try to convince you they're nice or the good guys. but they aren't going around, killing people because they feel like it and just want violence and bloodshed. there's a good reason people reminisce about mobsters and organized crime, but not ted bundy and ed gein. it's like that dichotomy between bad boys and bad men; there's an aesthetic behind the guy in a leather jacket and a motorcycle, one that a cheater and abuser lacks.

it's midnight and i'm running on three redbulls, so i can't find the ways to describe this exactly, but there's a balance that needs to be achieved for a bad group to be bad, but not bad. i've always felt like charlie/beatles did this really well, in a way that even i can't figure out. i think a big problem that i've seen the group run into in the last few leaders in regards to the badlands being bad is too often, there's either too much of an attempt to justify things, or too little. we don't need to have an enemy because of some personal offense, and just "i feel like being enemies" is too hard to relate to. a lot of charlie's actions had some logic behind them (usually some kind of desire for power, and furthering the group = furthering himself), but the bad things he did were never excused. there wasn't ever any attempt to excuse his actions, they were a means to his desire for power, and i think it was a good execution in his actions.

and this isn't me saying we need a charlie 2.0, or that every leader needs to be like him. there was one and only, he had his reign, and the world moved on. but we've had a lot of leaders attempt to be bad, but never executing it in the same way, and thus, they never received the same following and activity that charlie's muse offered. there's always too much of an attempt to justify their actions and have members sympathize with the character, or too little and the character just feels off-putting.

the badlands as some civilized society, allied with almost everyone, and raiding npc's will never interest me, and likewise, a lot of people i think. the badlands as some truly evil entity also repulses me. i don't want serial killers or fighting rings, because it's hard to write in those scenarios, and as we saw with that evil group plot years ago, very few people have any interest in playing just evil.

charlie's reign has raids where he literally yeeted children, but they were occasional. there were events with other groups, but it wasn't easter eggs and holiday parties. they had enemies, but it wasn't 24/7 war, but occasional fights and heaps of occasional tension. beatles wasn't afraid of them being the bad guys, but they were always deeper than just bad guys.

no leader is going to be the same as the next, but i think fundamentally, if we want to see a fragment of the former activity and life the group had, it needs to harbor the same general idealism. it isn't a family friendly group to raise your kids in, we can't justify every bad thing we do, and we can't force people to be serial killers or pirates or anything else. the mafia theme worked really well because no one had to have a parrot and play pirate, but there was an easy air to it that characters felt comfortable with. the group crossed a lot of lines (again, yeeting a child) but there wasn't public torture and free for all killing.

this is just a lot of rambling, but i think my real message here isn't that events or drastic changes to ranks or bandanna's matter in the long run. they're details we should mind, but overall, the alignment and sense of justification of the group is what has really mattered much.

even artistotle has pointed out that bad people only befriend people who serve some use or purpose to them (be because jim is famous and it gives them cloud, or because bob helps them move their couch), and i'd personally like to see more of that power hungry, self serving, slytherin personality be reincorporated. having an ally for peace's sake doesn't make much sense if we want them to be bad guys; i'd love to see more of a "you don't serve a good enough purpose to me, so i'll call you neutral, and while we're not gonna actively attack you, you aren't our friend so we'll do whatever we want with you." want to show that a leader is bad, or that they want to be in the upper hand in all of their outside relationships? demand more give and less take from their allies; not "we'll help each other" but "you'll help us, we won't kill you". if a group is in any way negatively aligned, they really shouldn't ever view someone as a friend or an equal, but instead a means to an end.

this is kind of long and i'm tired and hungry, but i hope y'all get what i mean? but i'm not interested in some massive theme, or gladiator fights, or Neutral Nancies. i want bad guys who don't apologize for being bad, but serve some sort of purpose, like wanting more power, and understand that order and organization in necessary to get it. i've tried over and over again for a while to be super active in the group, because historically it was always my favorite place to be, but at the end of the day, the neutral alignment and lack of focus and direction the group has had for a while has always turned me off. this isn't anyone's fault, and ik every leader has done their best, but fixing aesthetic issues isn't going to do much; we need to figure out an orientation for the group, we need to figure out where the line is drawn, and only then will it make any sense to give a shit about events and bandannas, tbh.

[Darky]

Ty everybody so far for all of this, this stuff has been very informative to read and it's given me some concrete things to work on. I will do my best to get an anonymous survey up and running today, so anything that might've been held back can be explained and addressed soon.

And rather than responding to one specific person, I'll respond to points brought up since that seems easiest imo.

[spoiler=Lack of things to do]I wholeheartedly agree there's been a lack of interesting things to do / events, and yeah a lot of that boiled down to not being able to run them due to a lack of members. I don't think that's anybody's fault, and I will reiterate here that if any of BL's members want me to run a specific event, or want to run it themselves, I will throw my full weight behind it and do my best to make sure it happens.

I'll say that an inner-clan rivalry isn't something I'd like to do atm, given we have a lack of members and I'd rather not hog the spotlight too much with Salem; BL has had issues in the past with the leader taking too much of the limelight, and I don't want to trade one issue for another. If ppl want to plot out a nasty rivalry between their characters that spins into a civil war however, I'd be fully supportive.

Scarecrow being a serial killer and a resulting clan-wide investigation would be interesting, but given there's a lot of ppl saying they don't want BL to focus too much on serial killers I might have to put a pin in making that plot a clanwide one. You're still free to do your own thing and set up a plot w/ other characters doing an investigation to find out who's been killing people and it leading back to Scarecrow, I just won't be able to participate as heavily or pull in any BL members who didn't make the decision to join the plot.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Neutrality]It seems pretty cut and dry that people don't want neutrals- or at the very least don't want allies anymore. I'll need to talk to the other leaders about it and rearrange plans with them, but I'd be fine with axing allies and keeping neutrals as a cease-fire type of deal; still enemies, but being given a break for whatever reason.

Previously, allies have been restricted to trading partners (as with FL and LS are both currently trading partners with BL) but I will speak to Truce and Bryne to figure out what their opinions are on being dropped to neutral if/when I remove allies.

I will say in the vein of discussing BL's political movings as of recently, I will explain that me and Truce have plotted out a two-faced "alliance" between Bluestem and Badlands; starting out with the Badlands helping Bluestem clear out some of the other groups on the prairie, with Bluestem using the Badlands for cheap labor and the Badlands using Bluestem to siphon off unneeded resources from the raids, both continuing to overstep their boundaries until eventually it results in both groups realizing they're being used and turning into a rivalry.

We also plotted out a series of skirmishes with ND as tensions rose - not resulting in a full-out war, just tension and occasional fighting, kind of like a border rivalry in Warriors - but given BL's current overwhelming need of ND's clinic it hasn't kicked off yet.

Both are plots me and Truce like, but I'm sure we can work it out if the plots need to be modified or scrapped if they'd weigh down ppl's muse.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Bandannas]Mixed opinions on whether or not bandannas are a confusing deal. I'd agree that Grunt bandannas are quite confusing imo, but are HP bandannas also confusing?
I'd like to know before attempting to remove or alter them.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Guide and Board Inconsistencies]Thank you guys for bringing up the Guide's inconsistency to me, can't believe I hadn't noticed it earlier. I will fix the date in the title right away!

&& I agree the mis-matching themes of the board and the actual group need to be rectified. First a consistent theme will need to be picked before I go about changing those, since I'd rather make one change instead of multiple.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Theme]A lot of information about BL's theme, so this section may be a bit longer than the earlier ones.

I frankly agree that BL, at the moment, doesn't have a concise "personality" and seems to be more on the chaotic-neutral side of things. I don't think that type of group is bad, but it's clearly not a wanted thing for the Badlands to align themselves like that.

I don't think a pirate theme would really work out. Both for the reason that most groups in TNW aren't coastal, and I don't want to implement a theme solely based on the leader's backstory. I've never been a fan of leaders drastically changing the theme of a group to match their character's personality, and I don't think in the long run anybody but Salem would embrace a nautical theme.

It seems like there's a lot of support for returning to a mafia theme- well, I should elaborate. There's support for returning to a central theme with emphasis on badness, without forcing it down anybody's throat. I think that's a fundamentally good change for BL, so I will pose the question: What do people want as BL's central theme?

I'm willing to return to a more mafia-style theme, or try something else out! Under Catalyst there was an undercurrent of street gang themes I picked up on, so I'd also be fine with expanding upon that and cementing it as a theme or throwing it away entirely and putting my full weight behind a new (or returning) theme.

I will say that while I'm completely, fully open to doing all of these changes for BL and doing my utmost best to work with BB's community to make BL a more flourishing, interesting group for everybody, I draw the final line at changing Salem's personality to suit any kind of "Badlands leader" model.
I can ICly force him to move the group in a certain direction, and push and pull at bits of his behavior to work out the changes being asked of me, but he'll still fundamentally stay the same: an egocentric, power-hungry, lazy bastard desperate for attention and validation.
That's my limit, and I wanted to say it plainly. I'm due to be replaced in early May, so BL will be receiving a new leader with a new character then, but Salem stays unchanged at his core until then. I know that's not been asked of me yet, but before conversation about leader personalities goes too far I figured I'd chime in.

Okay, back to more themes. People want lines draw in the sand for what BL can and cannot do, and I'm open for modifying existing IC rules or adding new ones to fit the theme once its been picked. I'm of the opinion to do something like "do anything to achieve your given goal, with the exception of anything needlessly cruel (ex: no killing a baby, committing any war crimes for the sake of it, torturing somebody for funsies, etc)" But I want to hear what people want and use that.

Also, bit of mixed opinions on BL justifying/not justifying their actions. It seems like ppl want there to be a line of reasoning for BL's malicious actions, but nothing to really justify them. I think I've got this right? But if you guys could elaborate on this, please do, as I'd like to try and get this right.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Territory expansion]Expanding the territory sounds like a great idea. Baseball fields, a local college, etc, all sounds like a good way to expand the city.

I'll wait until the discussion of themes is concluded before cementing what territory expansions we want, as preferably they'd suit the chosen theme in some way.[/spoiler]

I hope I didn't miss anything, but there's my two cents lol. If anybody wants to respond, elaborate, bring up different points, etc, please go ahead.

[Darky]

Hi! As some people may know I'm heading the Badlands atm, and at the prompting of one of BL's members we figure getting a thread up - or survey, but I haven't had the time to set one up yet -  asking about people think about the Badlands, what I could do to get better, etc.

BL is currently struggling a bit in terms of activity and members, so some info about why ppl are shying away from the group OR why you stay in BL would be excellent! Really, any information and opinions on the current state of the Badlands would be incredibly useful.

[Alexander Crane]

So to be quite frank, the Badlands is rather boring atm. It's not your fault, though, at least not that I can see. The problem is a bit of a conundrum really. The Badlands is boring because there's not many events, and not much to do, but at the same time, we can't host successful events without members.

I have some ideas that might attract other people, but the problem is that I'm not sure what people want. Hopefully, this thread can clear some of that up!

So first of all, in terms of ideas, I'd like to maybe capitalize on the Badlands ‘goods and services’. This is brewing alcohol, hitmen, weaponry, and things like that. I'd like to see events such as wine tasting events to draw in potential customers, brewing events to restore stocks, more settlement raids to restore supplies, although NPC raids seem to be rather unsuccessful with the amount of members we currently have. I feel like the Badlands have this whole little area of untouched potential that we just haven’t been using, and I really want to try and put emphasis on making the Badlands productive in terms of crafting their own supplies, and trading with other groups.

I'd also like to see the Badlands less neutral, with a more menacing spin, without being completely lawless. An evil tone that allows the growth of more evil characters without all out chaos, and without making neutral or good aligned characters feel too left out. Maybe alter the Worm rank a bit, so that members captured from other groups can be Worms, perhaps. I was thinking of 'get rich quick' schemes to make being a Worm more interesting, such a non lethal gladiatorial events for the Badlands entertainment, where Worms are forced to fight, and the winner gets instant freedom or promotion to Grunt. So we got this evil "forcing Worms to fight" thing, but it's sorta like Gladiator [the movie] in a way, that Worms can earn instant riches and fame for winning these events.

I'd like to see more interaction with other groups. I'd like to, first of all, see neutrals eliminated, to support the whole evil thing. Maybe the Badlands only allies with groups it views as beneficial, such as trading partners, and everyone else is classified as an enemy, because the Badlands doesn't see them as useful to have around as friends. Maybe we could have tournaments where other groups are invited. Allied groups that win the tournament get a discount on Badlands goods, while enemy groups that win a tournament earn a certain amount of "peace time" in which Badlanders are not permitted to bother them. I think more parties where allies are invited, and other friendly alliance events can get some more activity on the board as well.

Overall, I’m interested in a more evil themed Badlands, but not entirely lawless, and productive and useful as a whole to other allied groups, while being a potential menace to others that they deem fair game. Maybe host events, such as parties, settlement raids, tournaments, as well as hopefully plot raids on other groups with the other leaders as well if they're interested, depending on if they’d rather be enemies than allies.

I think the bandanna thing, while super cool in it's own right, might be seen as confusing to newcomers. I think we should get more opinions on that though before removing it or altering it, as I personally like it, but I've gotten feedback from a friend that it's a little confusing to learn.

Overall, we can perhaps attract more members by taking on a more evil theme, without forcing lawlessness, chaos, or in general, without forcing characters to be evil. I think there can be a balance there, where the Badlands is like, a menace in nature, but doesn't necessarily force it's members to participate in cruelty. I guess you could say that would make it more neutral than evil, but even if the more good aligned characters choose not to participate in gladiatorial events and say, public NPC executions or something, they'd still be happening...so. The thing is there are currently no evil groups on the site that I can tell. The Badlands hasn't really...been doing anything? We raided an NPC settlement recently I think, and that's it. We haven't raided another group since Flintlock in 2017, as far as I can remember? Quite frankly, I feel as if, even with all the restrictions, the Badlands under Charlie had a considerably more violent undertone, which I quite enjoyed.

Maybe we should have a theme? Under Charlie, it was mafia. Since then we haven't really had a theme. We could return to our mafia roots or, hell, Salem is a pirate right? Teach us all to be pirates and let's take to the high seas with a freshly built sailboat fleet. I think a pirate theme could be fun! If people are interested, we could ad-on to the territory, a hidden cave or cove where we can hide our ships!

I think a good inner-clan plot could be interesting, some rivalry or something between a member and the leader that leads to a takeover, sorta like Salem and Catalyst, but more...involved with the rest of the group. Maybe a civil war type situation. OR, I can offer a serial killer mystery type deal with Scarecrow, where he starts killing fellow Badlanders and the group starts getting uncomfortable and feeling unsafe and perhaps in the end Salem finds out it's Scarecrow, ousts him, and perhaps they do battle or something and however that ends, we can work out, whether it be Scarecrow fleeing or being killed or something like that. But I think a serial killer plot could be an interesting way to snag the interest of potential new members. It could be a tense mystery, crime scene investigation type deal where slowly the history of Scarecrow and the Badlands is revealed through torn out journal pages scattered about or something, which would be his signature.

I think a plot with another group would be good as well. Asides from plotting tournaments and parties with them, maybe a rivalry with another group? Hell I can stir one up with Scarecrow if you want, he can go murder one of them and leave a journal page over there as well, dragging that group into the Badlands' serial killer investigation perhaps, and maybe they can choose to either help Salem find the killer, or distrust Salem and blame him for the murder and cause an all out war or something. I'm down for a badass final showdown where Scarecrow ultimately comes out on top, or on bottom. Whichever ya'll are interested in. We can Scar vs Simba this thing. XD

If you wanna do the serial killer plot, you should definitely hit me up on discord or pm or something so we can work out the details!

And of course, I'd love to see the opinions and ideas of everyone else. <33

[ajdawny]

[align=center][div style="width: 400px; text-align: justify"]Wow Sheo! That was an awesome, and fascinating read. I agree with you that the Badlands is stuck in a bit of a rut right now. And it's a loop. Can't get active because there are few members/interest. And we don't have a lot of members and interest, because there is no activity.

It's something of a paradox.

I do like the idea of the Badlands going badder, as well as them going back to their roots so to speak. Being more proactive about attracting customers, and providing services.

As for going more anti-neutral. And cutting neutrals from their list, might come back to nip them in the bud. Not sure I want to see war, or like prolonged conflict plots, they tend to dry up muse faster than the desert dries up a puddle. (At least, for me.)

The group being more neutral than evil, to me, sounds like a good idea, there are a lot of neutral characters around, and some people find it difficult to play really "bad" characters.

Plots with other groups could be good, though, it takes two to tango, and it might be out of "character" for some groups to visit the Badlands. Seeing as they aren't exactly the best of groups to trust. Especially with groups that know how Salem really took power. (lol).

I honestly like the bandannas, and though, I've been in the Badlands since they were implemented, I never found that too confusing? It could be better explained, or more explained I guess, it's a much less permanent way of showing rank than a brand, which is the other way to esteem a character who's been doing well, aside from a verbal commendation.

Theme's are all good and well, but when the ranks continuously change depending on a leader's personality, it gets a bit confusing. I honestly enjoy generic ranks, I suppose I'm pretty alone in that, but that's just me.

Inter-group plots are great, there's always fun to be had in a bit of tension, but as it goes, sometimes rifts between characters can create rifts in a group, whether they're meant to or not. With the group already pretty slow, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to create a big rivalry, which will draw focus from other people's characters onto just two or three characters.

Plots with other groups are also great, again, it's tough when there are as few characters active characters that can be counted on one hand.

That's about it, sorry this is so long, I honestly don't have many ideas myself. I certainly do want the BL to get more active/attract more people, not sure how that'll play out.