SURVEY RESULTS + DISCUSSION & NOTICE/ULTIMATUM

[eliza]

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dittoing demonaut on the note of discords. i find it extremely hard to get into a group if i don't feel welcomed oocly, and discord makes this abundantly easier. it's very easy to sustain a dozen conversations at once in a chat that updates instantly, and i've found a lot more warm welcomes happening in discords than in chat threads. it's too easy to get overlooked if you post, then two other people post, and suddenly your response is bumped away. but not being in the discord doesn't mean you're missing much of anything beyond us all making memes and pyre telling us to get in the right channel. the reason i'm only in three groups are because they're the three with discords - i can't incorporate myself into chat threads because i feel very excluded and unwelcomed there. it does suck that some people feel excluded from them, but i know that if there was a question like that regarding being excluded from chat threads, there would without a doubt be at least one vote.

on the note of hp's, i'm gonna try to be as honest as i can be, and this isn't an attack on anybody, just the way i've always run things in my stints as leader on ff. being an inactive leader sucks, and it's not great for group activity. everyone knows this. but being inactive doesn't give your high positions a free pass to be inactive too. these people are not normal members, they carry authority in the group, and when you're inactive, they should be there to pick up the slack. if they're inactive for a certain period of time due to irl stuff, that's one thing and that's completely understandable. but there should be a start and an end date for that sort of thing. if their irl issues are too much, then they should either step down or be demoted, because though it sucks, they should be focusing on this issue and not trying to hold onto a position they can't keep up with. again, just want to make it clear that this is directed at no one, because i know statements like this can feel a little attack-ey.

external conflict is definitely an important thing, but not something that i value a whole lot myself, so i can't comment on it. me/the wolves are always open for plots, though i am a little hesitant for them to acquire any more enemies atm, just because boardless activity can be very up and down and too many raids at once can be an up and down. i'm not entirely closed off to it, though, but it would definitely need discussing - or using a plot beyond just a war.

internal conflict is always something that i love, personally. perhaps a fire or some sort of storm/flood? the idea of an internal divide also sounds really fun! i'm bad at these kinds of ideas, but i'm always down for anything.

i know i'm without a doubt a victim of the hitting and quitting, and i'm definitely trying to work on that. i know how frustrating it was when i had my joining thread getting no responses, and having to bump it repeatedly, and i hate to think about other people going through that same frustration, so i'm without a doubt going to work on it.

[BORZOI]

ive said p much all i can say so i'm not going to continue the discord stuff but i'm still standing by my opinion ahh

as for the hp thing, highkey dittoing that entire paragraph

+ just two sidenotes, dog's an idiot and is always open for internal conflict (considering he has a hair-trigger temper) and eliza you're one of the most icly inclusive people in the group so kudos to you, just sayin

[Wafture]

[align=center][div style=" background-color: transparent; border: 0px solid black; width: 500px; min-height: 7px; font-family:arial; line-height: 110%; text-align: justify; color: black; padding: 20px"][size=8pt]I think the problem I have with your reasoning is for the most part your point about people onsite missing the "fun, eccentric" people of the Discord server is again, a personal thing. Most people would consider me a pretty humorous person to be around, but I don't go on the chat thread just for the same reasons as to why you don't go on the Discord - it's easy to be excluded, overlooked, and since Discord is offsite, the rules aren't as strict and I don't feel as pressured when posting. But Eliza basically explained most of what I think, so I won't really say much more EXCEPT for the fact that yeah, 10 people liked the Discord and 3 people didn't. The majority rules, but there's room for improvement - that "improvement" shouldn't be completely removing something that those 10 people like just because those few people don't. It's completely uncalled for.

[aureate]

[align=center][div style="width: 500px; text-align: justify; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 9pt; line-height: 1.4;"]I'm also very firmly sticking with what I said about discord, but this is the last I'm saying on it since people seem pretty divided and there's no point arguing. Pyre is a wonderful leader and I agree that this isn't a reflection on her leadership, but I've absolutely felt out of place in this group since that got up and running. Now that there are people able to talk and plot in a very fast-paced environment, it feels like all of these relationships are forming around me instead of with me. This is absolutely personal, but I'm obviously not the only one experiencing it.

I am agreeing with what Eliza said about HPs and honestly!! I love the idea of a fire. Though that does involve some territory destruction, the territory regrowth could be a really amazing plot, and it opens up caring for injured animals and possibly expansion of their territory via landmarks and stuff, which I adore.

[impiety]

As someone who has been heavily excluded over the use of discords, I've been told that "I'm not missing out on anything" more times than I can count. I am time and time again ignored onsite because of my lack of discord, and honestly? I'm not going to use a discord group chat, even now that I have a discord. They are downright exclusive, and the whole purpose of the OOC chats on the forum for the groups are made TO chat with the group. How will people chat if everyone's on discord?

As someone who only got a discord three days ago, I'm just going to say: being excluded by a whole group because you can't have a discord hurts. I refuse to use discord group chats due to just how cliquey, and downright bad they are. Not everyone has discord accessible, but the people on bearbones? They ALL can access Bearbones. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get included in TNW groups that have a Discord, and it shouldn't be that hard to get included.

I think the Discord group chat should be removed. Sure, chats update instantly, but how hard is it to reload a page, click reply, and type it up? I'm on a kindle, I type 2000+ word posts on it. I have bad internet, but I have chats with people ON bearbones that move quickly, because you take the time to look and reply, I've plotted out entire characters with people on Bearbones, but there's few willing to DO THAT because of the Discords.

For people with a Discord and intensely like it, it's hard to understand just HOW bad it is. Take a break from Discord for a week - you will find quickly that nobody talks to you, groups are excessively hard to get into to a point it will make you sad. You become nonexistent in the groups you believe are welcoming. The only group I feel welcome in anymore is the only one without a Discord.

I know I'm not in ND - but there is a reason. It is BECAUSE of the exclusion I have experienced. Technically I have a character, but I've just felt so unwelcomed I don't even like to RP here.

I hope this doesn't come off as blunt or rude, but I feel like if I hold my tongue too much my point won't be made. Discords are bad for a community, I've been driven away from ND because of the discord. The only people who acknowledged me in the ND group chat on the Forum are people who agree that Discord's make people feel unwelcome. This also goes for all offsite chats.

[BORZOI]

agreeing w bedlom and hoot
just. yeah
i know just sticking to the onsite chat won't just stop cliques, but what i'm saying is like. currently? the discord is basically,, one big clique?
the people who can't join the discord for one reason or another are excluded, and i think that's very harmful to the community
everyone has access to onsite chats and can jump right in whereas if everyone moves to offsite then the people who can't move are pretty much screwed
people have been being pushed away over and over by the ooc community here being unwelcoming already

[Wafture]

[align=center][div style=" background-color: transparent; border: 0px solid black; width: 500px; min-height: 7px; font-family:arial; line-height: 110%; text-align: justify; color: black; padding: 20px"][size=8pt]Agreeing with Hoot. Take away Discord, and the problem isn't solved at all. People complain about the chat threads even without them, so chat threads won't save the community being any less inclusive to new people. Considering that 10 people outright said they like the Discord and a minority disagreed, how will that help solve a problem if we just remove it because that very small minority is displeased? That's like saying that hey, one of your toes need to be amputated, but lets just take the whole foot off, yeah? No, that doesn't help anything. If in the case that we do remove the Discord, it'll hurt the community because members will have less of a chance to closely interact with each other. I can confidentially say that I've been able to one-on-one get to know most all of the ND community on the Discord minus everyone that isn't on it. Meanwhile in the chat threads, there are 20 conversations going on at once, adding on page after page, I lose track, hop onto the next conversation, and so on. There's no time to joke around and get to know each other properly unless you take a step and completely reach out via messaging to that person. In Discord you literally just @ them and can go on from there, with a quick, easy messaging system that gets to them right on time and prompts them to reply faster.

But that does not mean that the minority should be ignored, because clearly if people are blaming the Discord for the source of their problems, then both the chat thread and the discord need to be fixed alike.

I'd argue that the Discord isn't one big clique. It's literally just a place for people to chat, and sometimes when you chat with people you become friends, so I can see why you'd think it was unwelcoming, but at the same time if people tried to include themselves more instead of waiting on people to run to them, we'd have less of an issue with this in the first place. I've been on both sides of the argument, being a leader plenty of times and a member just as much, and from a leader standpoint when people complain about not being included its because they don't try. It takes two to tango. Which is why as a leader it's made me frustrated in the past because I would do the same as Pyre and try to open plenty of means of communication, emphasize not ignoring other people, and actively try to talk to others and get to know them.

Bottom line is that the Discord shouldn't be removed. It's a tool used for communication. If we're bringing facts into this, it's been easier to make friends on it, plot with others, and its way faster. We have two staff members in the Discord and they have been amazing at diffusing situations when they get out of hand. Before the Discord, I felt like an outsider in ND, even when I was the leader, and after certain things came to light I shut myself out from interacting with anyone completely. My experience on the Discord has been nothing but positive and I feel like people aren't giving it a chance. Join it for more than a week at most and then give your opinion on it, instead of outright blacklisting it because of past experiences, things you've heard from others, etc.

No offense meant in the making of this post. Tried to give my honest opinion on it and I understand that me being passionate comes off as borderline biting at points, and I've remade this post a billion times trying to find the right words and this is what came out in the end.

[dame]

ok I am going to lock this while I work on my reply, this will be back open once I'm done!
Also a little reminder that even if you guys disagree about the discord, at the end of the day we want Northstar to be a positive place, so keep things civil and open-minded. It isn't that pa yet, but I want to get this out there before it is.

[dame]

[div style="width: 450px; text-align: justify; margin: auto"]I'm not gonna hit every point bc of how fast the discussion was moving, but I'll try to get everything! I probably just rambled a lot I'm sorry

[justify]For internal conflict, I feel that there should be a group wide event. It doesn’t have to be anything bad or anything that destroys the territory, just something to get the characters more bonded with one another. Maybe a festive party or something, a big field trip for the newcomers, a buddy system, stuff like that.[/justify]

— I think getting more stuff going on both positive and negative would prob be good. I've been wanting to do a sort of flea market and actually properly introduce the trading npcs but I've just not had the time or muse to do it. That's just one example I'm sure I could. think of more but go figure I'm thinking about the other aspects of this discussion right now so this reply is shit.

My opinions here are a little long for some of these, oops. I'll bold the important bits.

— My problem with the Discord server, even with all of these changes, is that it's putting effort into a place that not everybody can go or wants to go. While that helps the people there, it serves... The people there. Instead of the entire community. So while that may be a cool idea, BB is the common factor between everyone in ND and IMO, that should be the focus instead of Discord? But if you do go through with that, I agree that the support channel shouldn't be a thing. Maybe make it clear that they can message people privately but yeah it's difficult to moderate and would either get very little use or far too much.

— For HP activity, I still believe that it should just be up to the [u]better judgment of the leader when things have gone too far with inactivity. While of course you have your own standards and everything and it's fine to share that, such as "I expect HPs to make around # posts a week and do their job properly", situations are flexible and having a set and certain quota will just burn people out. It's happened to me repeatedly so even though I don't play a HP anymore, this is sorta important to me. I would honestly just start demoting people who aren't around because there are more active members who deserve it. Positions can be earned back, anyway, and demotion makes for some interesting development.

— I would like to see something to do with trading. An embargo or something, because ND is supposed to be a trading group but that doesn't make them peaceful. I kinda want to see them use their wealth and supplies to their advantage and prove that they have weight.

— We've talked about this before lmao so even though I'm not around right now, something like that? A HP and Marine getting into some trouble and having a kind of divide go through the group just for a while? This should be quickly resolved but I really like the idea, and the fact that it should lead to some pretty cool group bonding.

— I agree that this is a problem, it's kinda made it difficult for me to feel comfortable posting new threads. Maybe there should be an award or acknowledgement for this sort of thing. Even if it's just a badge or character title about someone who keeps threads and interactions going for a long time. It's really rewarding when threads don't die down but that also requires the threads to be interesting, so maybe a list of prompts for both starting threads and spicing up current threads. Like wow this thread's dying down, time to have a monkey throw rotting fruit at one of the characters. Maybe not exactly like that, but still.

— I suppose I've been focused a lot on the Discord because I feel like a lot of the issues are stemming from that (and based on the debate between people for and against it, that doesn't seem to be unfounded), and I want to fix those issues. If people didn't feel welcomed there, then I need to find ways to make them feel welcome, especially because the majority is in favor of keeping it. But you're right, more work needs to be done on the BB side of things. I've been thinking that the various channels on Discord could and should be threads on BB, so that people on BB really wouldn't be missing out on the things offered in the discord channel.

— I guess I've just had situations in the past where my judgement was inconsistent or not suited to the group, which is why I like the idea of a set-in-stone quota, but also why I want the community's help in shaping what should and shouldn't be in the "guidelines". Idk. Maybe it should be I have some line where it's too inactive, but it's not set in stone. idk.

— I'd love to see more stuff done with trading, though with so few people interested in doing that sort of stuff it kind of falls on me, and again I just haven't really had the time. I'm gonna try to make the time tho, and I think[ I might have at least one person that wants to help me out with doing more trading and diplomatic stuff.

— That would be p fun still yes! I just. need to find someone ig.

— Hmm, those are some good ideas that I'm gonna have to keep in mind. I'd love to rework the title system, tho idk if that's the best way to reward that sort of thing? ig it depends on how it was reworked.

honestly dittoing rev and hoot bc they sum up my thoughts nicely lmao
ESPECIALLY the discord stuff that rev talked about. I really dislike the idea of the discord. Off-site group chats have never failed to split groups apart, make people feel as if they were being ignored, etc. I understand not everyone feels this way, and I understand that people find them fun, but you have to take into consideration the people who can't have a discord or can't join the chat for some reason or another. It's just distressing?? And yeah. This is the only thing I have strong feelings about and tbh I'm standing by my opinion that it should be shut down rather than have anything added to it

I really want to keep everything on the site, mainly because people stop using the chat threads when there's a discord + people can get uncomfortable with certain people etc etc and I myself have hORRIBLE experiences with group chats, so yeah it may be bias but. I just think it's more important to have everyone onsite for inclusiveness! personally I see more harm than use coming out of them a lot of the time

real time chats are super fun, I just think they're better suited for friend groups so nobody gets left out

here's a few quotes on the subject. i had another quote talking about the possibility of people shittalking other members offsite (a HUGE reason why i hate offsite chats) but since you're staff, pyre, i'm sure that's not a problem? though if it is then yeah that's just. more to why i hate these offsite group chats rip

— I totally get how it feels to be left out because you don't have offsite contacts (or don't want to join places you feel uncomfortable in). I can't tell you how many times I've been asked about skype or discord (I've only had the latter for 3 months and still don't have the former) and had to say I don't have it. It's kinda how I got so pulled in, tho I rlly only made the discord bc someone else was going to make it. Anyway that's not really what you were talking about. I've been doing a shit job of addressing the points w discord, but ig that's because I haven't been arguing for or against it. I will say that there hasn't been a problem with bashing, which is good.

[size=8pt]As someone who uses the discord, I think it - like the chat thread we have on BB - is a tool that members can use to effectively communicate with each other. I don't participate on chat threads myself because they tend to be just as inclusive and easy to be over-looked as the Discord server is. It's a matter of preference. I've met more friends on the discord server than I've had on the chat thread here, and the discord server offers more options in developing characters than we also have here. With my flimsy characters, I've been able to connect with other roleplayers and their own and it helps me keep up with muse. I don't think it should be shut down because that's an extreme option that won't really help much in terms of improving the community. If we're going to improve ND's community, we shouldn't start by destroying one of the good few things we have here in terms of communication, it just doesn't make much sense.

You can dislike the discord server and not participate on it, you aren't missing anything. At all. We talk about the stupidest stuff and our characters, but we aren't talking about important group things, and if we were Pyre (being the responsible leader she is) would've also brought it to the attention of the rest of the group.

— The thing is there are some things that people on bb are missing out on, like the headcannon channel or the ic chat or so on, which, frankly, I think would be something we could remedy really easily.

ok I'm not rlly. gonna keep going through each person's posts regarding discord bc I don't have too much to say but I am reading them and taking all of them into consideration! I will. ig talk more about my thoughts at the bottom.

on the note of hp's, i'm gonna try to be as honest as i can be, and this isn't an attack on anybody, just the way i've always run things in my stints as leader on ff. being an inactive leader sucks, and it's not great for group activity. everyone knows this. but being inactive doesn't give your high positions a free pass to be inactive too. these people are not normal members, they carry authority in the group, and when you're inactive, they should be there to pick up the slack. if they're inactive for a certain period of time due to irl stuff, that's one thing and that's completely understandable. but there should be a start and an end date for that sort of thing. if their irl issues are too much, then they should either step down or be demoted, because though it sucks, they should be focusing on this issue and not trying to hold onto a position they can't keep up with. again, just want to make it clear that this is directed at no one, because i know statements like this can feel a little attack-ey.

external conflict is definitely an important thing, but not something that i value a whole lot myself, so i can't comment on it. me/the wolves are always open for plots, though i am a little hesitant for them to acquire any more enemies atm, just because boardless activity can be very up and down and too many raids at once can be an up and down. i'm not entirely closed off to it, though, but it would definitely need discussing - or using a plot beyond just a war.

internal conflict is always something that i love, personally. perhaps a fire or some sort of storm/flood? the idea of an internal divide also sounds really fun! i'm bad at these kinds of ideas, but i'm always down for anything.

i know i'm without a doubt a victim of the hitting and quitting, and i'm definitely trying to work on that. i know how frustrating it was when i had my joining thread getting no responses, and having to bump it repeatedly, and i hate to think about other people going through that same frustration, so i'm without a doubt going to work on it.

— Yeah that's a... really good point

— Yeye I wouldn't want to jump into a conflict w them just bc conflict, I'd want there to be more to it than that too.

— I've never really been that into territory destruction plots, tho if other people are into it we could see about doing it!

— tbh I think p much everyone has been, it's a rlly serious problem but yeah you're? one of the better people w that


Ok so here's where I'm at with discord personally.
— There are times when it's a ton of fun, but there's also times when it is downright exhausting for me. Talking with my friends is A+, but when things start getting out of hand, I'm not enjoying it. I'm having to play the moderator and get people to stop, and the first few times it happened things would go back to fun and whatnot, but lately it's been happening more and things only go back to fun for a few minutes before the next thing happens. Frankly it's hard to moderate alone, especially when it gets going really fast and I'm trying to do other things, like post or spend time with my gf or if I'm offline altogether. I can't be there 100% of the time and I don't really want to be, but sometimes it feels like I have to be there to make sure everyone is having a good, pg-13 time. It's a lot of fun for other people, but it's a lot of work for me.
— So there are times when I just don't want to deal with having to mod the discord. I don't want to have to deal with the drama. I figure if I hadn't made it, we wouldn't be in this situation, but maybe we would because someone else would have made it if I didn't. Sometimes I think I should make it more accessible, though the reason I haven't put the link in our header is because I don't want anyone and everyone who visits bearbones to be able to get my discord (or the discords of anyone else that might not want theirs to be public info), even if I've got no problem inviting anyone that joins Northstar to the server.
— At the end of the day though, I know a lot of people really like it and there are times when I have a really good time too. I just want to do the right thing for the community, even if I'm not always that into the discord. Right now there's a lot of people that are staunchly for the server and staunchly against it and I'm kind of torn; I feel like those that are against it have more compelling arguments (maybe that's just bc of where I'm leaning tho) but there's also a majority that like the discord. So I guess rn I just want to do everything I can to make sure the people that join the discord are welcomed there and the people that would rather stick to onsite things have plenty of fun things to do and plenty of friendly people to talk to.

IN CONCLUSION I'm going to be working on the community both on discord and bb, but I think the time has come to shift our discussion to the other things on the table since they're also very important, though if anyone has any additional thoughts they can pm me.

this post sucks and is a total mess tbgnfh

[SHELBY MCKENNA]

Trackin bc I'm not. Emotionally equipped to participate in this discussion at, but I do have Opinions